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No need to be sorry, Megan. As brutal as this site can be on those claiming to be “professional”, there are others who genuinely try to help even if they are somewhat harsh at times. You’ll be better for it in the long run. I’m curious, though, if you know this person (also from your hometown!) who is being talked about in another forum.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Imagery-by-Ali/347319511959817?fref=ts

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Just curious if there is any rivalry here with this one and another on here with both being from the same small town in Saskatchewan!

https://www.facebook.com/Ty.Evy.Leah?fref=ts

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I agree with IHF. Listen to MBC.

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Erika, MBC knows his stuff so don’t ignore it. I’ve learned not to.

MBC, thanks for your real website and the name. 🙂 I’ve downloaded the PDF; it’ll take me some time to get my head wrapped around it!

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It goes to show what I know about artistic talent when what I thought was glass is actually water. 🙁 Now that I know what it is, it makes perfect sense. I told my friend about your offer. I’m doubtful he’ll take you up on it, though, because he’s really self-conscious about showing anything. He doesn’t have a website or even a Facebook page for his photography. He has never uploaded photos there and the only pic he has there is a profile pic that is 5 years old!

May I ask what type of equipment you use for a typical shoot? I know the equipment really has no bearing on what can be produced that meets all the criteria for a good photo, but I guess I’m just wondering what I should be aiming for. I doubt a Nikon D300 and the 18-200mm kit lens make the grade anymore.

Your software project sounds interesting; I hope it works out for you.

I feel bad that we’ve been monopolizing Kylie’s thread, especially since my tirade on IHF, which she really didn’t deserve after I read her “Why I’m here” thread in the main forum, so if you’re reading this, IHF, I apologize for my rudeness. This conversation can certainly be taken elsewhere if it makes everyone more comfortable…

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@MBC Well, it seems you’ve already replied to my saying I’ve addressed your thoughts on thoughts on my misconceptions on pricing and photography so you can ignore what I said in the other thread. As for folders, I sort into events as well, but those I try to keep at a minimum and I haven’t shot nearly all the events that you have. I have reunion folders and soccer/lacrosse season folder for my kids but that’s about as far as they go. Any personal shots go into one folder per year but ultimately the files are named as I described so I have only 9 folders named 2004 through 2012 for each of those years. It’s for that purpose that I was describing my photography filing system, but yes, as a software developer (to me the term “computer programmer” is faux), I completely understand the necessity of having a useful file, backup, database and archival systems in place. That’s why I have 6 backups of everything important to me—four of local hard drives  in case any of them go bad and two off-site in case my house goes up in flames.

I’m not knocking anything you said about quality, especially when it comes to prints. But if a photographer can charge less for the digital side and keep the customer happy, then great. But I’m not saying keeping the uninformed customer happy with mediocre work is OK either. I was just saying if the customer has a choice between photographers, all other things being equal, they will choose the less expensive one where budget is a concern. In the same vein, I’ve known couples who get married by a JP in the back yard, use a community hall catered by their friend’s restaurant and still spent $3500 on photos because 20 years down the road, no one will remember what the meal was or who sat next to whom, but they will all cherish beautiful and well-taken photos that last a lifetime.

 

 

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@MBC

I looked at your images and passed the link on to my friend. I’m in no position to critique them and I don’t think he will be either. I think they are very nicely done, but I was wondering if the shot with the woman having the sphere coming out of her elbow is any better that having a lamp post growing out of one’s head that professionals and amateurs alike frown upon. And I thought when I saw the face in the rippled glass (at least that’s what I think it is) that “Hmmm, I’ll have to try something like that.” As for meeting my friend, you’ll have to make a date to come see the Calgary Stampede or stop by on your way to Banff or Lake Louise, either for skiing or summer vacation. I know he’s overly critical of himself and I think he has the impression that there’s maybe a half dozen images in the thousands he’s taken that are worth anything. I tell him he needs to have more confidence in his abilities but maybe he think he’s another GWC who knows the technical details but has problems with the artistic side. Like you, he is VERY good on paper, even with creative writing, but photography is a whole different thing altogether. Like me, he is a software developer so I suppose our left-brain logic far outweighs the right-brain creativity, if that makes any sense.

It was your comments about the reprehensible nature of shooting women without any concern for dignity that got me thinking about your type of criticism. I do agree with you that shooting women needs to be done with a lot of respect to them; I just took exception to the way you replied. I also don’t think rattling and tearing down are very different from each other because there are times when both do more damage than good. I also addressed what you thought were my misconceptions about photography and pricing n the pricing thread.

When I read your responses to MeriLeighPhoto, I was thinking, “YES! This is the way photographic discussion should be!” The way you took the time to explain filters and other concepts to her is very commendable to say the least. It’s not wrong to be harsh, but there are times and places where it needs to be done. I’m not saying everyone needs to be treated with kid gloves or be treated as a total neophyte to photography either. I suppose you and I don’t agree on what some of those times and places are for being harsh, but they are pretty close for the most part. I’ve heard about the 20 terms you mentioned in another thread but admittedly didn’t know them all (I got 17).

It was not my intention to be sarcastic, but I have to wonder about the passive-aggressive thing. There is a video on YouTube that has several thousand comments where the term appears in several hundred that I know of. It’s about a person in one country that calls the other country insignificant and stupid and of course the thousands of comments are petty bickering about which one is better. There is another video that talks about the peace and great relationship these two countries share. The countries in question are the US and Canada. You’re American and, yes, I’m Canadian, but I have to wonder if all Americans think Canadians are passive-aggressive? I don’t take offence to it but that is a topic that shouldn’t be discussed in a photography forum and so I’ll leave it at that. If you or anyone reading this would like to see which videos I’m talking about, search YouTube for “Tucker Carlson calls Canadian retarded” and “Tom Brokaw explains Canadians to Americans.” Any guesses which one I like better? Just out of curiosity, how close do you live to Tommy Jordan? 🙂

All in all, I would like to thank you for your candor. If you continue with your advice and doses of harshness where you think it’s appropriate, I know I’ll be back to seek them out. I’m thinking there’s a lot I could learn from you, too. Are there any other forums, like Digital Photography School, that you regularly contribute to?

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@MBC I couldn’t agree more with your standards. But as you said yourself, being inexpensive is not a faux since, as you say, those looking to go pro will charge less to get their foot in the door, so to speak. But I don’t see someone who charges substantially less as having no pride in their work, unless all they do is hand over a DVD of images unseen. That same photographer at $500 could spend all the time as the $2500 one because they look at it as providing a service that will be advertised by one of the best mediums possible, word of mouth. The photographer may not even be a “pro” at that point, but if he/she adheres to the qualities that define professionalism, I see nothing wrong with that. Yes, they may have to live in a tent for awhile (figuratively speaking, of course), but if they can accept that as the price of moving on to bigger and better things that will eventually lead to a better lifestyle, then all the power to them. Am I wrong to think that possibly you were also in that frame of mind when you first started out?

I think that’s a fair assumption in any profession. Great lawyers will start out as legal clerks and doctors as interns. Trials of the century and cures for cancer do not happen overnight. Even as a software developer., I have come a long way from writing “Hello, world!” on a monochrome green CRT to writing sophisticated multi-tier applications for both the web and desktop for multi-billion dollar businesses. There’s a lot of pride in that, whether it’s small is output to a screen or a client is deliriously happy with a $500 shoot. Do you not agree?

I’ve even taken the initiative to apply that professional talent to my passion. While the “what” of a photo is important whether it meets professional standards or not, for me the “when” is just as important. I’ve seen many photographs in my extended family where the person holding the photograph or in it has no real recollection of when it was taken. I’m not saying that it’s because of their age, memory skills, mental capabilities or anything of the like. I’m not even saying that they have to remember that the photo was taken at 11:37 AM on Friday, July 22, 1966, but they may if it was a very significant event like “You may now kiss the bride.”

For me, the “when” is very important, too. I don’t really care for image names like IMG_1234.JPG or DSC_5678.TIF and I can’t stand hundreds of folders like “Christmas 2009” or “Vacation 2012.” So I wrote a small utility that renames those files into “YYYY-MM-DD HH24.MM.SS.JPG”.  That way, I know when a photo was taken within a couple minutes of what the real atomic time is, the disadvantage being it’s not foolproof in that I may not remember the exact year a shot was taken, let alone the rest of the date and time. But if I know it was the summer of 2002 or 2003, it makes for a much easier search either on screen or in the hundreds of thumbnail pages I’ve printed. I know there are other programs that may do that for me, but I wanted to have the pride in doing that for myself.

Anyway, I’m getting way off topic here raving about something most people wouldn’t give a damn about. My point is that experience definitely plays into a lower priced wedding shoot, but not time and consistency, especially when pride is on the line.

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I couldn’t have said it better myself. Unfortunately, there are many others on here that would disagree with you for providing such services at an affordable price because they have “higher standards.” What are these standards they so desperately cling to? What makes a $500 wedding shoot any better than a $3000 one anyway?

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@MBC A lot of what you say makes sense and you write very well—much like a friend of mine who is very passionate about photography but doesn’t feel he has the skills yet to call himself more than an experienced amateur. For him, and for me, preserving the memory is by far more important than winning the Pulitzer for Photography or something akin to National Geographic’s or Life’s Picture of the Year. Yes, I agree that clients expect a reasonable quality of photos, but that is inherently tied to their budget. I’ve read some of your comments where it seemed you were a little hot under the collar and you wanted to reach through your screen to the person you were commenting about and scream some things to them that meet your photographic ideals, and only yours. That is hardly constructive criticism and I’d be willing to bet you’re still learning even after 32+ years of being in the business, as we all learn new things every day no matter what profession we’re in.

This site is much more dedicated to “your photo f***ing suck”  types of responses and, as a result, constructive criticism is hard to come by here. To me, the idea of constructive criticism is not a total stripping down as you say you’ve been through. Comments like some of those on here are real ego deflators and passion killers, but there are certainly times when things need to be said to get the submitter’s head out of the clouds or think they are God’s gift to photography. I’ll give you that much, but not not by being malicious about it for the sake of it. I also think that your comment (used a few times) about being in the business longer than someone has been alive has an air of pompousness behind it, but that is just my opinion.

It’s far too easy to say thinks like “your lighting is bad”, “your composition stinks”, “your backgrounds are distracting, your subject is out of focus, etc.” but a lot of the comments stop there. There is very little of the WHY and “here’s what you can do to make it better.” Books can only tell you so much and content is more often than not geared toward the technical side of photography, ie: here’s a photo and here are the ISO, aperture, and shutter settings to make it better. There’s no WHY in that text. Photography is much more than numbers for the exposure triangle, meter readings and lighting ratios or GN numbers. I know you understand all that. But to have malicious comments on here with nothing to back it up amounts to nothing more than cyber-bullying, plain and simple. It’s far too easy to blast away at someone from behind a screen than it is face to face. I think you are just as guilty of that but at least you have the decency to say it more tactfully than most of the others on here. It’s up to the person receiving those comments to interpret them as they fit, but if that information is taken negatively, you tried your best to help.

I for one would like to see what 32 years of experience and dozens of magazine covers look like. I dare you to post a link and and any descriptive text you like to the Photography Showcase forum. You may get some flack from those who have nothing better to do than criticize because it makes them feel superior, but I’m sure there will be a lot more positive comments and questions on the how and why you shot something one way as opposed to another or what type of lighting you used and where you placed it, exposure settings, lenses used, and anything else behind the whys of even more. As harsh as IHF can be, I’m almost positive that she and many others would like to see and read about all that. Unless, of course, you feel that contributing in that way violates your business sense because you’re not being compensated for your “online instruction”…

I invite you and any others who see this to read the Pricing post in the main YANAP discussion forum and post your thoughts about it there.

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@IHF I have to agree with Click It about you being vindictive. It seems you’re all over the board with your comments and yet you’ll write lengthy comments all while “having no time” to do so. Commenting as “honestly and as accurately as I possibly can” does not mean completely trashing everyone in sight. Having your link requested seems like those you put down are thinking “Just what makes her better than me?” I came across this site a couple weeks ago and I must say this is not the best place to get helpful advice, but there is such a thing as having some tact, which obviously you do not possess. You replied to one person that she was not a fauxtographer because she does not charge for her work, but you claim you’re not a pro but still sell prints, cards, etc. Does that make you a faux as well? Perhaps a bad experience with not getting decent family photos and losing your sight has made you vengeful?

I’m not about to make this into a war of words, but if you feel you have to lash out at me for expressing my opinion about someone who is in the top three for negative posts on here, then by all means do so and I’ll move on. Malula’s thread is not the place to continue this “discussion” (it could have been added to any thread) but having it here with Click It’s opinion keeps both our thoughts in the same area. Lastly, if you wear your “amature hat proudly”. at least spell “amateur” correctly.

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