Home Forums Let’s Talk Photography The Dark Side of Photography?

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  • #12608
    Bill
    Participant

    Hello, this is my first post here on the forums, but something I had to share with fellow photographers to get their take.

    Every once in a while I browse the craigslist site for what is going on in the area and I look into the “Creative Gigs” portion of the site.  When business is really slow, I have been able to scrounge up a little business from here but nothing too reliable or consistent.

    Anyway, I keep seeing these repeating patterns in here under “Creative Gigs” and I would warn that the use of the word “creative” is very loose.  I bugs me when I see what seems to be the same person posting for the same thing every week posing as a “photographer.”

    I know several people post on Craigslist to get free models or try to build up a portfolio when they are first starting out, I’m okay with that, you do what you got to do to start out.  But the examples below are actual listings I see that bug the sh*t out of me.  I would post the direct links but they will probably expire soon and not be valid links.

    #1   looking for Female models who want to improve their portfolio looking to shoot this week

    #2 This ad was for no pay   >> I am looking for a photo assistant for simple things like holding reflectors, lights & handling photo gear. Experience is a plus.
    The photoshoot will take place on tomorrow, Wed September 4 at the ——– in the afternoon. There will be other jobs as well. This is a perfect job for someone interested in photography and wants to learn from commercial shoots.

    #3 This ad was also listed as no pay  >>  Photo gig for new models or models who need exposure
    Looking for curvy models who are interested in being seen..low pay but you will be seen and maybe discovered…

    #4  I am a freelance photographer looking to expand my portfolio in modeling. I need a bikini model for today and a fresh face is fine. If you can follow instruction, smile and have fun you can model. This would be a TFP shoot and located in——-.

    And of course my favorite re-occurring post listed for no pay   >>  looking for female model no experience needed ,,for a free sexy shoot ,,start your portfolio or add to it all digital images will be given to you … get back if interested send a simple pic of u and number for contact …all body types welcome we help u pose

    Some of these posts bother me because they will post the ad with a series of photos that are not theirs, but all the EXIF info is missing, making it hard to find the actual owner of that particular photo.  I have used Google image search and Tineye to call some of these “photogs” out but want to make sure I have definitive proof before doing so.

    Another local photographer does the same thing by re-posting and replying to their ads and calling them out for what they are.  Not sure how effective this is but at least I know I am not the only one it bothers.

    Whats your take on this and is it really that bad all around or just certain areas?

    Thank you

    #12610
    cameraclicker
    Participant

    Lots of Time for Photos shots are taken.  I don’t have any problem with that.

    The only part that bothers me is the use of someone else’s photos instead of their own.  It also bothers me that Facebook and some other sites strip EXIF data.  I’m not thrilled that Photoshop strips EXIF if you choose Save for Web, but at least you have a choice, you can use Save As instead.

    #12611
    ebi
    Participant

    craigslist is a joke. I remember trying to find work on it years ago and how unbelievably ridiculous it was to find anyone willing to pay even a decent rate that was worth getting out of bed. Of course, at the time, I was starving so, I kind of had to. And looking even further back, I remember a situation where there was an ad looking for someone to work full time and the money was good. The only catch was I had to interview in Long Island. So I took the train to the LIRR for about 1 1/2 hours out to the middle of nowhere. Then had to take a cab from the train station to the address listed on the ad. When I get out there it’s some random house. I knock on the door and the guy informs me that it’s some cruel prank. They aren’t sure who did it, but they imagine it was one of his daughters friends. He said that there were about 50 people lined up outside the house just a few hours ago. I was fucking livid! Not only did it cost me about $30 that I didn’t really have to get out there and back that day, but it wasted my entire day. Ever since then, i’ve been very weary about craigslist ads.

    I recently posted an Ad for a very low budget job. I wanted a second assistant for the job and the client wasn’t willing to pay so I was willing to take anyone that was brand new, cover their expenses for the day including food and train them to do digital work, which if you are good, pays really really well. No one bit. I even put the word out to a really well known photo instructor about it and I got one response. The girl came out with us for one day and she was absolutely great. I was so eternally grateful for her giving me her time and I put her at the top of my list when I needed another assistant for a paying job. She had even asked to work more days to gain more experience.

    Back when I was starting out, I worked for free a lot. I interned at a big studio in NYC, which paid nothing but the pay off was exposure to big photographers and their first assistants. Meeting those people lead to picking up freelance work as a second assistant and tech for them.

    The problem with craigslist is that everything is mostly anonymous and even if not, it is highly anti social. You really need to, and this is especially true for female models, meet people in real life before you commit to doing any work. And it’s better if you know them from prior work. I’m friends with a model who is very successful. I suppose she is considered a supermodel since she has a fan following and a wikipedia page. I’ve known her for years and at one, very brief, point in my career I considered being a fashion photographer. I knew she was someone I could approach if I had a good idea for a shoot. She’s very generous in that way, especially when she commands 10’s of thousands of dollars a day for shoots. And she’s a good recognizable face to have in your portfolio. I met her by working with her on multiple jobs. These are the kinds of connections you really have to make. Craigslist models and model mayhem models are not really models. If they were, they’d probably have an agent and wouldn’t need these sites.

    #12616
    Bill
    Participant

    I guess I should have mentioned it in the post earlier but I think the thing that is most bothersome to me is how predatory these ads on Craigslist are or at least they seem that way.  I don’t know these people and hopefully never will.  I get asked a lot when I am out shooting or by clients during a shoot about “these Guys” or what some call GWC’s “Guy with a Camera.”

    I explain to most what my take is on it and to women especially I say to always be extremely careful when and if dealing with GWC’s.  I’m a guy and I have a camera but I don’t want to be a GWC, if you catch my drift.  I just get the impression that most of these ads on Craigslist are from GWC’s and I get this mental image in my head of this girl thinking big dreams of getting great shots for nothing, only to realize that the guy sucks at photography and just wants to get laid or see a girl do what ever to get ahead.  Maybe I have seen way too many Lifetime movies or something, not sure.

    @ ebi, that sucks what happened to you and I can relate.  I have been burned so many times I can’t even begin to count the times.  I usually go into a situation now anticipating the worst and hoping for the best, this way I don’t feel down on myself if things don’t work out.  It’s a shitty way to look at things but way better then beating yourself up afterwards.

    By the way, I am totally with you on the dealing with people in person.  I am kind of old school in that fashion, where I mean what I say and my word still holds value.  I don’t mind using e-mail and texting to set up a meeting, but I still like meeting people before working with them.

    I used Craigslist for a time to get some models when I first bought my lighting gear and wanted to try it out and get a variety of looks.  I got 1 offer and 10 SPAM emails.  I turned to Model Mayhem for a bit, no better.

    #12809
    ebi
    Participant

    Bill, if you have a decent portfolio together, you can call agencies and test new talent for free. If you take photos that the bookers really like, you can actually get them to pay you for it and they’ll just start sending you girls. Not much, but like 200-250 a girl. Are you in a big city?

    #12810
    ebi
    Participant

    Also, I would say that 98 out of 100 guys that want to be fashion photographers are gay. One wants to screw models and the other legitimately wants to be a fashion photographer. The gays get the jobs, the one that wants to screw the girls knocks one up, marries her and moves to the suburbs and the straight guy with good intentions is broke struggling for work. A bit of an exaggeration, but also fairly true.

    #12941
    Bill
    Participant

    @ ebi  damn you must be watching me or something.  I’m not gay and really have no drive to shoot fashion, but not to sound too jumpy, if it paid well, then I would do it.  Photography is photography, but my heart would not really be in the right place for that type of shooting.

    The good thing is that I am married already, and not looking to “bang” young models.  Don’t get me wrong, having attractive women to shoot is great, a bonus if she is taking some clothing off or has none at all.  As a guy, I am full lesbian and damn proud of it, but not looking to loose my house and all my cool camera gear for a piece of ass.  Sad thing is I am that good intended broke straight guy in the suburbs struggling, lol.

    Never really thought of looking at the agency side for fresh talent, will have to give that a try.  Thanks ebi, thank you a lot.

    I live just a short drive outside San Diego, California and go between here and Philadelphia from time to time.

    The only thing that really sucks is the property costs are extremely high here, so I do not have a studio of my own as of yet, but I do have one I typically rent when the need arises.  Many of the girls I talk to often request a studio setting, not sure why, but they do.  I think they seem to think that every photographer comes with a studio, or they give them away with the cameras.  I like shooting in the studio, but not every shoot calls for it, and trying to convince some of these girls that I know what I am talking about is sometimes a bit tricky.

    #12942
    nesgran
    Participant

    Isn’t the requests for a studio more to do with them then knowing that the photographer is serious rather than a random guy with a camera

    #12946
    Worst Case Scenario
    Participant

    I work a lot with models and most of them don’t wear very much during a shoot ; )

    When I started working with models about 5 years ago I was amazed that so many seemed willing to take their kit of in a strangers spare bedroom and then get crap pictures in exchange . So I started a couple of pages on sites like Model mayhem and their UK equivalents.

    After about a year I asked for a critique of my portfolio on one of these sites. I was gobsmacked! No one even mentioned my photography! They all just harped on about the fact that I put a border around my images?Apparently that’s the 8th deadly sin!  And how dare I say things like ” We are a proper studio with years of experience” as apparently that meant every photographer who doesn’t have a studio is rubbish!

    Moral of this story? Not sure if there is one, but there will always be girls who are stupid, and there will always be blokes to exploit them.

    I tried to help the situation in my area but even in rural UK there are more girls who think they are models than I can handle!

    #12949
    ebi
    Participant

    WCS, the border is obviously an issue if it’s distracting from the work. Then again, we are talking about a bunch of photographers so, probably not your target audience. Was it a border to imitate film? or was it something else?


    @nesgran
    , I think it’s quite common to test girls in non-studio spaces. I friend of mine, back when he used to shoot, use to bring them into his bedroom. White walls, white sheets. He’d have them take their clothes off, hop into bed and he’d shoot tons of polaroid. He did occasionally have sex with them, so that may be a bad example.

    I think it’s all in the approach. Often assistants that got on with models on travel shoots would ask them to test at night after they wrapped shooting for the day, unbeknownst to the rest of the crew.

    #12950
    Worst Case Scenario
    Participant

    WCS, the border is obviously an issue if it’s distracting from the work. Then again, we are talking about a bunch of photographers so, probably not your target audience. Was it a border to imitate film? or was it something else?

    Just an inch of black border and white sight line, but we’re talking villagers with pitch forks and flaming torches, and models saying they would never work with someone who did that to their photos!

    #12951
    ebi
    Participant

    well that doesn’t sound that bad. Seems a bit harsh…and that’s coming from me.

    #12953
    Bill
    Participant

    @nesgran  – I probably should have elaborated on that part.  True , the impression people get when you have your own studio is that you are more legit then a Guy With a Camera.

    I usually test “models” out with a natural or urban setting before making the move to a studio environment.  I have plenty of nice scenery around town to provide good backdrops.  Now if they were doing implied nudes or nude shoots, I would suggest a studio for the privacy.  In the past I rented out luxury hotel suites, this way I don’t have to bring furniture or props, they are already there.

    I guess what I was trying to say, is that the “models” I would get had a different expectation of what a studio shoot was.

    @ ebi – funny thing is, one of the first model shoots I did wound up in the girls bedroom.  I was big time green for model shoots then, but I wanted the experience.  It started out as a beach sunset shoot with some strobes and a softbox and wound up doing a girl on girl half-naked lesbian shoot.  Totally was not expecting that.  Trust me when I say nothing happened, it wasn’t as glamorous as it might seem.

    @ WCS – true the model shoot on the beach I did where it ended up in her bedroom.  I was amazed how quick they were to take what ever I asked to take off.  Truly their taste in clothing was very distracting and had too many things that just dangles in the wrong places, lol.

    BTW , I’m not one for adding borders unless it adds something to the photo, but in my opinion, it usually doesn’t, but that’s just me.  I have seen some photogs adding those grungy borders and I am not too sure they work, but then again, thats just me.

     

     

    #12954
    cameraclicker
    Participant

    Just an inch of black border and white sight line

    Got to ask.  How big were the photos?

    At 300 dpi, an inch is 300 px!  The largest stuff I put on Model Mayhem is only about 600 -700 px across.  If I put a border on it, it would be 4 or 5 px, max.  Though, not many get a border just because that is extra work.

    #12955
    Worst Case Scenario
    Participant

    can’t remember the exact size but it would have been something like a 12×10″ @ 300dpi  plus an inch border all around and then scaled down to 72 dpi for the web. It’s just horses for courses, as portrait or wedding photographer we would never let anything out of the studio unless it was framed or mounted in some way. I still put a border around all my portrait prints. It was just the amount of  hatred for it that shocked me.

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