Home Forums Main YANAP Discussion Forum "Real" photographers are dumb

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  • #8791
    IHF
    Member

    Art is art, a professional service is a professional service.  Apples and oranges.  This is not to say that portrait services don’t require an artistic touch or can’t be considered art, but it is to say it doesn’t have to be as long as the product/service being sold are technically sound Sand reliable.  Yes, everyone has different tastes and that’s why we have McDonald’s and five star restaurants and everything in between.  But even McDonald’s offers a consistent reliable menu to choose from.  We aren’t asking or expecting everyone to be a five star (though it is encouraged) just at least be a McDonald’s Be before hanging out that shingle.

    even a hobbyist painter has to learn their medium, learn color theory, and how to work with different tools, and materials Etc to be able to use paint to convey or create what they see in their minds eye.  Either by being taught or by trial and error.  This goes way beyond different tastes and or different visions.  This is about people clicking a shutter without forethought, or any care or concern, and playing around with software and calling it photography “Hey! I think I’ll charge people for his!” And yes!  This is something that can be seen by looking at a photo.  It’s ok that you cannot, not everyone can, but to say no one can tell what kind of care was taken for a shot, is just being ignorant.  Sorry, but I expect any pro photographer to be able to create better portraits than I (whos only been shooting and studying for 3 years) can.  They re supposed to be experts.  I’m supposed to be able to look for and hire a pro easily, without doing background checks and conducting interviews, and going through their entire portfolio, wondering if i am taking advantage of them because they dont understand the value of what they do and have no business sense, or wondering if im the one getting taken advantage of because of shoddy work or work ethics.  what happened to standards?  How am I supposed to hire a tog to shoot my child’s senior portraits this fall?  I’ve already been searching and going through ports for a year to no avail.  Will I end up having to do it myself because everyone takes the pro title so lightly?  I really hope not.  I don’t even know off camera flash yet, and posing… Sigh… I don’t want them to look like my family snaps (not that they’re bad).  I want them to be done by a professional.  Maybe I’ll get through this muddy mess and actually find one that knows how to work with my budget without me ripping them off.  Fauxtography effects people.  Maybe not you personally, but to say that it doesn’t effect anyone is a little insensitive.

    mocking? Bullying? The person who says you should learn photography first before offering photography services, and then follows up with what is being done incorrectly, and offers information and help to try to improve someone’s photography, is mocking them?

    or is the person who buys a camera and says “hey!  I can do that!” And starts charging people, handing out business cards and calling themselves portrait artists before they even know what fstop means, or before they even know what color managing is, or how to use and manipulate light or why, or any of the basics that come with using their tools??  Who is mocking who here?

    Who is being more honest, both with themselves and to the public?

    #8793
    fstopper89
    Member

    If you’re referring to the thread I started titled “Fauxtographers who should end up on the main page” my intention was not to mock amateurs or beginners, rather really terrible fauxtographers who are charging money.

    #8794
    Gerbles
    Member

    +1 ^^^ I like what I Hate Fauxtography said about the fact that fauxtogs are actually the ones mocking the photography industry. I just sort of view it as a slap in the face for those of us who take this hobby seriously and have the respect and sense of responsibility to not charge before we’re ready. I find it ironic that most photographers who are hobbyists that seriously practice for years will never make a dime from their photos, while some MWAC will go to the walmart electronics section and pick out a dslr with the sole reason to start a business- and within a month or two, has a tacky facebook fanpage with gaudy watermarks all over her awful photos.

    #8801
    fstopper89
    Member

    lol, just this afternoon on the local buy/sell page a woman posted “Looking to build my portfolio. Who wants family pictures done?” and instantly all these people commented “Me!” and “Can you message me your rates?” hopefully she’s not charging, but it’s sad that several people asked what her rates were! Dumb consumers perpetuate the fauxtogs.

    #8803
    Loke
    Member

    I am  going to be the dissenting voice..and I agree with the above with alot of points..however, I also get what Civo is getting at…too many cookie cutter pictures all following the same “rules” and alot of photogs who try to be pretentious about it…I notice that here, but I’m on this site for a reason and it’s because these pictures are funny because yes they are bad and I do enjoy participating in these discussions…. but at the same time, more power to them, obviously they are people pleasers otherwise they wouldn’t have return customers (ok I’m joking but seriously….who can blame them for wanting to make money?…(obviously, fauxtogs lack the basic ingredients which I do believe you should have..at least) …….all business is a risk and sorry to say but if you plan on making photography your full time business you’ve missed the boat…too much competition since the first consumer dSLRs arrived on scene….I live in SoCal where photographers good/bad are a dime a dozen especially in the family portrait/wedding arena….even in news photography,  the local news photogs have found themselves out of work and having to make it on their own doing other things….

     

    when it comes to business you are ready or you’re not…you could be shooting for 25 years and still not be where you think you are ” technically” or you could be shooting for 25 years and you never grow as an artist……alot of photographers get bitter because they see all these newbies who they think are “stealing business”…but I’m a realist…. that’s the reality of it and it’s not changing….it’s called supply and demand….consumers want the best bang for their buck..that’s Economy 101 — fauxtog or not….people who appreciate art will pay for it…I could never put down money for an Andy Warhol piece, but I know people that would….I’m perfectly fine buying a painting from a swapmeet..does that make me bad because I’m not an art connoisseur? No it’s my money and I’ll do with it the way I please…. since photography is both a craft and art…everyday new technology comes out, that “craft” part will change….and considering that many things are going mobile now….and as someone who is heavily involved in the tech industry….hate to break it to you again, the cameras will be more and more automated…smaller cameras will soon be on par to the top of the line dSLRs…..which with mirrorless technology  it’s already happening…unless you are pixel peeper the quality is almost the same……and with Sony coming out with the first “affordable” full-frame compact camera…yeah things are changing……a photographer either gets that “eye’ or they don’t….they either challenge themselves to get better or they don’t..but above all…if you’re a pretentious prick that thinks your shit doesn’t stink and your customer service skills suck? Hell no..if I’m a customer I’ll go to the cheaper guy…..and also, no amount of top of the line equipment will you  better as a photographer..only you can…  ..but again it’s purely subjective…someone will always think you are awesome and the best photographer in the world, while someone else will think you suck.

    #8807
    IHF
    Member

    “lol, just this afternoon on the local buy/sell page a woman posted “Looking to build my portfolio. Who wants family pictures done?” and instantly all these people commented “Me!” and “Can you message me your rates?” hopefully she’s not charging, but it’s sad that several people asked what her rates were! Dumb consumers perpetuate the fauxtogs.”

    yes, as long as the fauxtog isn’t trying to make a living, and doesnt charge what they need to to make a profit.  Then it’s a win win

    Im with you loke.

    I think this genre of photography is becoming DIY whether we want it to or not.  Consumers have the say so.  And I have to stop myself sometimes from taking things too seriously.  lol but even that doesn’t work when I’m on a roll 😉

    #8810
    jenna504
    Member

    Civo your points are not only spot on, they so so eloquently put! It’s about time someone said it. Brown Eyed Girl has posted nothing but mediocre cookie cutter portraiture and continues to bash others. Art is supposed to be subjective.  Out of focus, over exposed, etc. may be visually pleasing to some. Can you honestly say that you look at the works of Robert Capa, Jay Maisel, and Gyula Halasz and say that they are all technically similar. They can’t be. If we all followed the same rules then art could not exist.  Compare the works of MC Escher and Andy Warhol.  Does one stand out to you? Both are world renowned artists, but their art is exponentially different.  How do you decide that one photographer is art and one is not?

    #8811
    IHF
    Member

    Because over exposed, out of focus, etc done  purposely works, and most likely that photographer will have a portfolio that backs it up, not a port full of out of focus poorly exposed shots that have no rhyme or reason.  While I agree, and I’m sure browneyed knows as well, as it has been discussed with her repeatedly, her work lacks in some artistic flare.  BUT, her work is all technically sound and well taken.  This is how learning photography works.  First you learn how to photograph effectively, then you work on honing in and developing further artistically.  You cant convey in a photograph until youve learned how to photograph.  But even if she chose not to push further, she is still offering a reliable professional service to her clients.  Not sloppy, lazy crap passed off as “art” because someone didnt take the time to learn first.  It’s like decorating the house before the foundation is built.  It’s silly, it’s frustrating, it’s funny, it’s shocking and appalling, and discouraging as hell for people who work hard at learning and developing at this craft.  Sorry if you don’t get that.  But coming here saying that you don’t get it, is almost like going to a kitten care forum and posting “I don’t like cats”.

    #8812
    jenna504
    Member

    I don’t think saying “I don’t get it” is an accurate assessment of what I meant. I am trying to convey the subjectivity of art and beauty. I am not condoning a lack of technical skills. But I refuse to berate someone because my interpretation of their artistic work is not the same as theirs.

    Also you just said Brown Eyed Girl has some learningto do, but then you called her a professional. What makes her different from every other photographer who is earning a living while learning their craft? There are so many double standards on this site. Furthermore, if I want to go on a kitten forum and say that I hate cats that is my right. People do not always have to share your opinions IHF

    #8813
    fstopper89
    Member

    Oh dear this Jenna is back. Be careful when you say generalized statements like “nothing but mediocre cookie-cutter work.” aka ignorant statement that is more based on your opinion. While I’m sure I have some kind of average yet technically sound work, I know and others have told me (no not just friends) that I have many very artistic works as well, and I’m always pushing myself to try different things in the creative sense, like most photographers strive to do. I take each shoot I do seriously and am not in it to make a quick buck, but to provide a quality product to my clients which in turn will gather me new clients. I’ve had clients come to me and tell me “I had so-and-so take my pictures and I just didn’t like any of them, and I really think your photos are beautiful.” Obviously, the people I “bash” as you say are the people this site is designed to mock like I’ve said a million times. Others here have bashed mediocre or beginner photogs that didn’t really deserve to be cut at the throat because their stuff wasn’t really bad, just not great. I’m also not earning a living while learning the craft. I do not do photography as my sole, full-time income and I would not consider myself to be just “learning.” I would say perfecting. We’re always learning new and better ways to do things, but most of us here are past learning the basics if we are on this site and charging/marketing ourselves as professionals because we know the difference.

    One way I would consider photography to be art is that it really invokes emotion. Usually a photograph would be using elements within to create a mood. Art of course does depend on how it is communicated to the viewer. A nice family portrait usually doesn’t speak to anyone but the people in it and their friends/family who view it. A family portrait where everyone in it is silhouetted against a beautiful sunset running while holding hands I would consider more like art. It has elements that add interest. This fall I had a few of my clients do a leaf-throwing photo because it was fun and brought out different expressions in their faces than an average posed shot. I considered those to have more artistic flair than the more traditional shots.

    #8815
    IHF
    Member

    Jenna, I wasnt really speaking directly to you, but at the thread topic and discussion as a whole.

    No double standards.  If browneyed’s work sucked I’d have no problem saying so.

    i also didn’t say she had “some learning to do”.  Please re read , before jumping off the handle

    And of course you can go to any open forum you want to and say whatever you like.  But, it doesn’t mean you will get anywhere

    I don’t expect everyone to agree with my opinions, just as you shouldn’t.  You feel they way you feel the OP feels the way they feel.  We feel the way we feel, and we both feel we are right and the other is wrong.  We disagree, and we have spent time discussing our points of veiw.  It’s called communication.  I can be hopefully to try to explain my point of veiw and try to sway a reader or a contributor to this thread, that doesn’t agree with the people who regularly participate in this forum , but I know it’s unlikely.  But to come and post saying we “are dumb” was this in hopes of trying to start a discussion and try to change people’s point of veiw, or for any constructive purpose?  No, it was like posting to a kitty care forum and saying “I don’t like cats”. What we talk about, say, do, might she seen as dumb, arrogant, bitter, etc to some, but only those who are ignorant about photography as a profession.

    Im done talking to brick walls, Im out

    #8818
    IHF
    Member

    that was supposed to read “ignorant about both photography as a profession and as art”. Sorry it’s late, and I’m on a mobile.

    #8819
    civo
    Member

    Just as a closing argument, many names of artistic movements – such as fauvism and cubism,  among others – have originally been given by the supporters of the preceding  movements to describe (in an offending manner) a new art form which they didn’t like or couldn’t understand because it was unconventional at the time. Actually Henri Matisse told his contemporary Pablo Picasso after Picasso had shown his painting ”Les Demoiselles d’avignon”(1907) to him that Picasso should never present this work to anyone  as ”it would destroy his career” and Picasso ended up having this painting in his studio with the canvas facing the wall. So Picasso kept on the going the same path he was before  until after three years he returned back to this painting, realizing there is something special about it and decided to present it. And voilà: Cubism was born. So with ”fauxtography” you actually may have coined a term that lives in art history to describe a new avant-garde movement of photography that changed the people’s way of looking at photography. Or then not. Time will tell.

    All the best to all of yous.

     

    And please forgive me my English, as it’s not my native language.

    #8821
    IHF
    Member

    Your English is better than mine civo.  All the best to you as well

    #8826
    civo
    Member

    Ps. The title of the thread was taken from this website from a post called “Fauxtogs Are Dumb”

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