Home Forums Main YANAP Discussion Forum Attitudes and Behavior on Social Media

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  • #10354
    iliketag
    Participant

    Hey all, I wasn’t sure exactly which sub-forum this best fits into, so I posted it here.

    I have noticed recently that some photographers on social networking sites have really poor behavior. For instance, I joined local photography group on facebook and some of the way these folks treat each other is really disconcerting. It doesn’t specify that it’s for professionals and there are a lot of hobbyists/amateurs in the group that are constantly talked down to instead of being encouraged.

    There was a gentleman that asked about the Nikon 55-200mm lens. Rather simple and fairly inexpensive, but great for a family shooter capturing their child’s graduation… yet many of the commentors sat there cutting the lens down without knowing the reason for the purchase. The man did not preface his post with what he would be using it for, and asked what everyone thought… but I was the only one who asked him “Well, what are you going to use it for?”. Maybe that’s something I picked up from working retail, but so many people were almost insulting because he said he wasn’t prepared to spend a thousand dollars on a lens he didn’t plan on using all the time.

    Another instance was when someone was talking about how to handle friends and family shooting over their shoulder at a wedding… one of the commentors went on about how he hates how people have these nice cameras and don’t know how to use them – pretty typical stuff – but then went on to say “Fucking Amateurs!”.

    There are people that come to that group looking for a photographer, or a photographer looking to refer a client to someone else because they’re booked already. There are even other photographers that come there looking for second shooters!

    A website like this is more closed off to “prospective clients” so here, I don’t care about what we say in terms of comments on the forums… but in a group like that with public exposure in your local area, it strikes me as unbearably unprofessional.

    Of course you have the ones who are very helpful and eager to create community, but then there’s another man (http://www.timothyfaust.com/) who constantly cuts people down or disagrees for, what seems like, fun…
    Most of us remember the madness that happened with Shelby…

    What do you think about the behavior expressed by ‘togs in a public fashion like that?
    Do you think it can hurt their business?

     

    #10355
    nesgran
    Participant

    I think it certainly does hurt their business, but not nearly enough. I doubt that many people actually check through facebook when they are looking for a photographer for their wedding/bar mitzvah/graduation/etc. However, if you have a bad attitude on there and are trying to get a job as a second shooter I doubt any real tog would hire them. I think that photographers are on average a bit older than many others who use social media and have probably not quite realised the difference between anonymous forum trolling (which tech interested people have been doing since the dawn of the internet) and being outright nasty when your name and company is attached to the comments. Also never forget that being able to get good shots don’t necessarily translate into being a nice human being.

    As for gear, that is always a tricky one. Most pros and some keen amateurs have spent more money on light stands than the average person will spend on their DSLR which warps perceptions a bit. The problem is when people aren’t realising how good gear is for its price, this holds true for some gear like the canon kit 18-55 IS and 55-250 IS lenses. Stopped down a bit they are very sharp and even wide open aren’t bad but only if you qualify it with “for what they cost”. It completely depends on the group you are talking to, one forum I frequent the canon 24-105L is one of the best lenses for most people out there yet on the next forum the 24-105L is a decent enough lens but not that many would actually use one because it isn’t good enough.

    #10358
    Thomas
    Participant

    So this is a bit off the initial topic and continuing with the lens theme here. I’ve got 5 lenses at present, the kit, a 50mm 1.8, a 90-300 (it sucks and I never use it anymore), and 2 old manual lenses with M42 mounts which I don’t use on shoots as I find it difficult to get perfect focus.

    Anyway, as  Nesgran said about the kit. I use this and the 50mm all the time, that’s it. I HATE that these are the only lenses of any use to me but I make them work for me. If you’re going to be a pixel peeper then I see the serious disadvantages that come with using these, but most clients aren’t going to notice whether you use a £100 lens or a £2000 lens when they get their prints. The only reason I want a Canon 24-70 f/2.8 and the 70-200 f/2.8 is due to reliability. My lens hunts for focus under certain light where these more expensive lenses SHOULD hit the mark.

    I shot a wedding in Snowdonia (Wales, UK) over the weekend and I’ve come back with some great shots using the 50mm 90% of the weekend. I am NOT a wedding photographer and was doing it for a friend of mine and for the chance to visit a beautiful part of my country and stay for free.

    go to my FB page and have a look at the sneak peeks. I’m not looking for harsh criticism but if you have any sound advice then please message me and let me know. Please don’t leave it on the wall or in the album, they haven’t even had their honeymoon yet, hahaha.

    https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.453814624709916.1073741831.398190253605687&type=1

    #10360
    nesgran
    Participant

    I wouldn’t have included the blurry shot when they are walking down the aisle and you’ve overdone the desaturation a little on the two kids. Otherwise I think that looks like a really nice set of shots by someone who isn’t a wedding photographer.

    As for the 50 1.8, it is a remarkable lens for what it costs. Image quality is excellent but only as long as you don’t compare it to its more expensive brethren like the 1.4. The straight aperture blades and a bit off colour rendition combined with the harvester AF motor makes it less appealing to me as does the lack of FTM override.

    Lenses hunting is mostly due to the body but to some extent to the lens. What body are you using? the xxxD series didn’t get good AF until the 650D whereas the 40D had good AF. Even with a tamron or sigma 2.8 you will find that the focus is far better simply because the AF sensor has far more light to work with. I had a look at your website and don’t get me wrong in a snobbish way but you badly need some better gear if you are going to charge people. You should be able to create shots that they can’t with their P&S. Go on gumtree, find yourself a 5D classic or better yet a 5d mkII and a 135 f2L if you shoot outdoors a lot or a 85 f1.8 if you shoot indoors mostly. If you shoot a lot in a well lit studio find yourself a canon 24-105 f4L for some more versatility or if you shoot mostly outdoors a canon 70-200L IS mkI or a Sigma 70-200 OS. You want to have the option to completely melt away backgrounds when they aren’t needed and for the really long focal lengths you will need the stabiliser since you don’t have lots of flashes that do high speed sync. Your shots look good and you have an eye for it but you don’t have the gear you need. In fact I would have removed the gear off your website completely as it looks really bad. If you get a full frame stick the 50 on your 400D and the 135mm of the full frame for a bit of variation.

    #10361
    dont.care
    Participant

    I couldn’t begin to say how much I’ve spent on gear. It actually grew out of an actual necessity into an addiction. I have just about every lens canon makes with an L designation aside from the “super telephotos”, i.e. the 200 f/2 and up.. 😐 I was in a camera shop one day and this older fella said, “Once it takes hold of you, you’ll never shake it!”

    #10363
    dont.care
    Participant

    I think if you’re going to buy kit; save your pennies and get the pro gear. You’ll be safer in a multitude of varying environments without having to worry about the small things and you can focus on the ‘big picture’ (pun intended). 😉 I recently got rid of my 5d II and my 1ds III and used the money recovered from those to go toward a 1dx.. The 1dx and 70-200 is weather sealed, while not perfect, it’s certainly better than a Consumer grade DSLR that would die if brought out UNDER a rain cloud.

    Now, I know you guys are going to say, “well not everyone can” blah. Save your money.  When I first started in photography, I had 2 jobs. One to support my ever growing family, and one to support my habit. 😉 I also have a supportive wife, so that helps.

    It sucks, and it takes a little longer.. But it’s more rewarding once you have your dream kit assembled.

    #10365
    iliketag
    Participant

    I absolutely agree with what Nesgran said about the kits as good starter lenses to learn the camera. People don’t give them enough credit, I feel. It’s definitely possible to get great shots with them, but if you’re going to jump into the business side, even part time, you’ll want to start expanding your gear and upgrading. If you want a 50mm, I would highly recommend the 1.4. I had the 1.8 for a year before upgrading to the 1.4. My 1.8 hardly came off my T3i (600D), but I saw a holiday sale on Amazon and jumped at the opportunity to pick one up for around $275. Look around to see if you can find one used or refurbished for around $200/250 and it will be worth the difference in price (and saving a wee bit longer). They go fast at that price so be ready to buy.

    One of the things my boyfriend pokes fun at me most is that my gear is worth as much as his car. Now, I haven’t paid that much for it… most of my gear was purchased secondhand on craigslist or by wheeling and dealing with my manager on open box equipment that was special ordered and we’d never sell on a regular basis – that’s how I got my 70-200 as a barely used, open box for $600… So under insurance, my gear is worth as much as a car (which may be the reason I still don’t own one……) but, I have a full time job and between bills and spoiling my boyfriend, it’s the only other thing I spend my money on.

    The only thing I say that contradicts what dont.care is saying is; I wouldn’t necessarily upgrade to the 1d series yet. I would recommend investing in lenses then moving to a full frame. Become familiar with the gear you have, lenses are virtually interchangeable (until you go FF and then it gets a bit different in terms of re-memorizing your distances – it goes quick though), so you can carry those over regardless of what body you’re working on. When you’re ready to make the move to full frame, get into the 5D series. The 1Dx is a large jump, mostly in price, that handles differently.

    —————————–

    In terms of the business side of things, it seems where I live a lot of clients come through facebook. Maybe not initially but you have people who lurk through your pages and develop an opinion AND even want you to recreate shoots. I have had strangers (friends of friends whom I don’t know personally) come to me saying “Can you do a shoot with us for an engagement just like that?”. I don’t normally take on what would be regular clients because I don’t feel like I’m good enough for that yet. Most of my shoots are with friends or as favors to friends. But if I were to go onto a facebook group under my business’s name, I really wouldn’t want to use foul language or be insulting others. On here I try and keep the language to a minimum too, just because of how I feel about maintaining a level of professionalism, even anonymously.
    I don’t know, maybe it’s just a pet peeve of mine…

    There are a lot of portfolio builders in that group too that post, but the posts are usually answered by other builders saying “Oh, you really need to work on *this or that* before working on your portfolio. Oh, by the way, I’m looking to build a portfolio and I need to second shoot with someone, so, anyone interested contact me!”
    On someone else’s post! Are photographers really that catty’a lot?

    #10371
    JCFindley
    Participant

    The smack talk about glass on a page that has both amateurs and pros doesn’t seem necessary to me at all.

    Sure, a Canon 70-200 f2.8 IS L is well worth the investment if you shoot weddings. If you are wanting to shoot your son’s basketball game it is about 2 grand too much.

    Will it hurt their business? You just never know.

    #10372
    nesgran
    Participant

    A 1DX is a great camera but not for every professional. The new 5D and 6D are weathersealed to the same standard as the older 1 series 35mm cameras and let us not forget the sound of the mirror of a 1DX, not exactly great for a wedding ceremony. In fact most photographers that don’t do sport would be better off with a digital medium format and a weather sealed pentax 645 costs about the same as a 1DX. While not as big a sensor as a phase one it still is twice the size of a “full frame” sensor which means lots of loveliness if light is good.

    #10373
    serenidade
    Participant

    I shot a wedding in Snowdonia (Wales, UK) over the weekend and I’ve come back with some great shots using the 50mm 90% of the weekend. I am NOT a wedding photographer and was doing it for a friend of mine and for the chance to visit a beautiful part of my country and stay for free.

    go to my FB page and have a look at the sneak peeks. I’m not looking for harsh criticism but if you have any sound advice then please message me and let me know. Please don’t leave it on the wall or in the album, they haven’t even had their honeymoon yet, hahaha.

    https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.453814624709916.1073741831.398190253605687&type=1

     

     

    Congratz man for the balls to ask critiques here. OMG I poop my pants of fear of someone discover my work. I  check this site everyday to check if I am in the main page LOL

    #10375
    dont.care
    Participant

    JC, I know a father who bought a 300mm 2.8 for his kid’s games (incl. 2x extender) mounted to a rebel.. While I’m not sure what else he uses it for, I’m sure it doesn’t make him money

     

    nesgram, The 1dx is a beast, but you don’t necessarily have to use it on high speed continuous running through the wedding like the paparazzi.  I have 2 5d3’s in my kit as well, so I’m not limited to this or that.

    I opted for the 1DX because I want to get into wildlife and birding. But, I generally use all my bodies when I do an event to have my “preferred lenses” already mounted…  Whether it be primes or zooms, it keeps the lens changing down.

     

    p10

    #10381
    JCFindley
    Participant

    Yeah, if you can afford that to shoot your kids, it is one heck of a lens. I shot with a buddy of mine during an NCAA basketball game and got to “play” with his, so to speak, along with his 1DX.

    At some point I will get a new body but on a cost benefit analysis it just isn’t the priority that glass is. Since I do art photography and what I would gain upgrading my classic 5D would take a while to pay for itself where as new glass pays for itself pretty quickly.

     

    #10391
    dont.care
    Participant

    Well, you could always upgrade for the added mp and high iso/low noise benefits these days.

    #10394
    JCFindley
    Participant

    Yupp, and that is where the value added would come from for me.

    The higher MP would allow me to offer 60 inch prints in addition to 48 inchers. 60 inch prints don’t sell all that often but they are 1.5 times larger (surface area) so I would offer them at $150 more than a 48 inch print.  So, to justify a 5DMKIII on MP alone I would need to sell 20 sixty inch prints. The number would be more like ten or twelve to justify a 6D.  But, I am not even sure I have sold 20 at 48 inches yet so it would take  a while to pay for itself based strictly on increased MP.

    ISO/Noise benefits might be a bigger factor, but I shoot 95% of my stuff via a tripod/cable release/mirror lockup so faster shutter speeds are not really needed except to reduce noise. That benefit is a little harder to calculate how it would help pay for itself.

    Or, I could get my private investigator license and buy a 1DX w a 300mmf2.8 and am pretty sure at the gazillion iso it has I could actually shoot cheating spouses through a cheap hotel wall on an over cast night with no streetlights in sight.

    #10398
    dont.care
    Participant

    That’s an interesting way to look at it, “become a PI”.. That’d certainly pay for itself quickly. Although, I’d go for the 600 😛

     

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